Saving Eden
Christopher Dickey joined us on Wednesday, August 25, at noon ET to discuss the pillaging of Iraq and whether priceless archeological artifacts can be saved.
Newsweek
With the future of Iraq so uncertain, the protection of its buried past has not really been a priority of the occupation troops or the new regime of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. But what there was in the beginning, in the world of the Bible, is what there was in the land now called Iraq. Now, every day and every night, the record beneath the sands is being destroyed. In what have become the lawless wilds of occupied Iraq, the history of civilization is being pillaged on an epic scale for a black market where irreplaceable fragments of our past are sold to museums, to sophisticated collectors or just to the highest bidder on e-Bay. When Columbia University professor Zainab Bahrani visited the Biblical site of Babylon late last spring, she was stunned to see an American military base, known as Camp Alpha, spreading across the hallowed ground. And among Muslim extremists, any graven image is seen as wicked, so what harm is there in stealing it and sending out of the country? How can these priceless artifacts be saved? Should it even be a priority? NEWSWEEK's Christopher Dickey joined us for a Live Talk to discuss these issues on Wednesday, August 25, at noon ET. Read the transcript below.
Christopher Dickey has served as NEWSWEEK's Middle East regional editor since 1993 and as Paris bureau chief since 1995. He reports on European politics, economy, society and new technologies, as well as developing stories throughout North Africa, the Near East and the Persian Gulf. An experienced combat reporter and expert on terrorism, Dickey led investigative coverage of the first World Trade Center plot in 1993. Since September 11, he has played a key role in NEWSWEEK's coverage of the war on terror. Dickey made his mark as a novelist with the prescient "Innocent Blood" (Simon & Schuster, 1997), the story of an all-American holy warrior recruited by an Al Qaeda-like group in a plot using smallpox virus to terrorize the United States, with Saddam Hussein as the villain behind the scenes. The sequel, called "The Sleeper," will be released next month. Dickey's work is included in "The Best American Science Writing 2002." He was also part of the team that in 2002 won NEWSWEEK the American Society of Magazine Editors Award for General Excellence and the Overseas Press Club Award for Best Magazine Reporting.
Christopher Dickey: Good afternoon. The looting of Iraq's underground archeological treasures is an enormous tragedy for anyone interested in the civilizations of the past that gave us the first written laws, religions and many of the critical events of the Bible. I'll be happy to answer your questions about what's happened so far, and what might be done to prevent the situation from getting worse in the future.
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Garnavillo, IA: Is there any proof today that the Garden of Eden, as described in the Bible, really existed?
Christopher Dickey: No. There's no proof, and most archeologists take the story to be a metaphor for the creation rather than a literal description of events. But what's undoubted is that the world of Genesis, as it has come down to us, originates in the valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates. Abraham was born at Ur, one of the ancient cities there.
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Livermore, CA: Suppose 0.1% of USA's military people defended ancient artifacts? 0.1% of 80,000 Army people is 80 defenders.
Christopher Dickey: The American, Coalition and Iraqi military clearly have their hands full protecting themselves and the economic infrastructure of modern Iraq. There are more than 40 attacks a day against US forces there. The oil pipelines, as you know, are under constant threat. The resources required to protect archeological sites in such an environment are simply greater than anyone is likely to commit.
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Canary Islands, Spain: Do you really believe there are artifacts buried there? Or could it all be a myth. Is the Bible true? Or a book written by someone with a vivid imagination?
Christopher Dickey: There is no question there are enormous numbers of artifacts buried beneath the sands and silt of Iraq. They and the ruins in which they are found are a window onto the world of the Bible that the book itself only begins to give us.
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Costa Mesa, CA: I'm grieved about the looting of objects and sites where precious, valuable objects could be found, but I think our generation has become a generation of "Idol Worshipers". God's Word says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." God works in mysterious ways. Do you think God is allowing this current atmosphere because we have made objects more important than the the worship of the true and living God of the Bible?
Christopher Dickey: The question of idol worship is very relevant to the issue of looting. Muslims, even more than Christians and Jews, are deeply hostile to the idea of idol worship. And fundamentalist Muslims of the sort who make a virtue of suicid bombings are also, quite literally, iconoclasts, They would destroy (or loot and sell in this case) any symbol of idolatry. Which is why in Afghanistan they blew up the enormous Buddhas at Bamiyan. They also viewed the World Trade Center towers, in their way, as false idols, symbols of decadence and Mammon.
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Anonymous: Have any of the artifacts been recovered and if they are found what can you possibly learn from them? Will they help answer the questions about the Scripture being real?
Christopher Dickey: The terrible thing about these thefts is that once an artifact is removed from the ground, we lose the context that provides at least 80 per cent of the information we might have gleaned from it. For example, suppose a battered cup from the first century were found for sale in a Middle Eastern marketplace. It would be worth very little. But what if it were found in the ground at site where Jesus and his disciples were known to have eaten at least one, last meal? The context would change everything.
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London, Canada: There is nothing left of the Garden of Eden, no artifact at the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers where myth has placed the Temptation and the Fall. But the great cities and empires from the Books of Genesis and Kings and Chronicles have left their traces: God in his infinite wisdom has hidden things from the self professed pompous wise and revealed the truth onto babes and its obvious from your statement that you fall into the category of FOOL!
Christopher Dickey: Thanks for your thoughtful comment.
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Livermore, CA: what can anyone do to save artifacts?
Christopher Dickey: We cannot begin to save most of these artifacts until law and order are reestablished more generally and effectively throughout Iraq. Until then, we can continue trying to strengthen security at some of the most famous sites, such as Ur, Babylon and Nineveh, and we can pursue as aggressively as possible the organized criminals and international dealers who trade in these items.
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Mesa, AZ: Why was President Bush making plans to invade Iraq in early 2000?
Christopher Dickey: In early 2000, Bush was still a candidate. But even before 9/11 there were widespread fears among Middle East experts that Saddam Hussein might be rebuilding his weapons programs, and might share biological or chemical agents with some terrorist groups. These were legitimate concerns. The critical question was how best to address them. In the event, the invasion of Iraq created problems that many people -- including archeologists -- had predicted, but the administration was not prepared to address.
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Livermore, CA: What can anyone do to save artifacts in Iran?
Christopher Dickey: Iran is an interesting problem. Although the lawlessness there is not nearly so extensive as in Iraq, there is widespread corruption that facilitates looting. It's also believed that a lot of the looted artifacts from Iraq are leaving the country through Iran.
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Jakarta, Indonesia: If you think that historical valubles are being lost in Iraq, what should you do?
Christopher Dickey: For all the reasons we've discussed above, Iraq's antiquities are unlikely to be "the" of the United States or the Iraqi government for many years to come. But public attention and pressure can at least make antiquities "a" priority.
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New York, New York: What is the significence of these artificates when there is so much unbelief and evil in the world. According to the Word of GOD in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Christ is image of the invisible GOD. If you believe, then all else has no substance or value.
Christopher Dickey: For those who believe that God created a world that is infinitely rich and complex, the study of history should be a pleasure, even an exaltation, not a threat to one's faith.
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San Diego, CA: Isn't it ironic that the location of the Garden of Eden is today a desolate desert?
Christopher Dickey: It is a terrible irony, made worse by Saddam Hussein, who drained the marshes of the region in order to punish the tribes who lived there.
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Portland, OR: How much will it cost to mummify my corpse? Should I start a savings plan?
Christopher Dickey: Cost should be congruent with your expectation that anybody might be interested in seeing it 3,000 years from now. Or three years for that matter.
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Port Edwards, WI: How can you, and how dare you refer to the Garden of Eden, the temptation and fall, as "myth." Where do you get your misinformation that leads you to such a misguided conclusion, and why would a prominent magazine allow you to spred such lies?
Christopher Dickey: Read the article again. The literal truth of the creation is a matter of faith, which I didn't address. The specific location of Eden in southern Iraq is the stuff of myth.
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Drexel Hill, PA: Why isn't the television being used to educate the people regarding the problem. Can't they have their own History Channel? Education is everything.
Christopher Dickey: Journalist Micah Garen was kidnapped earlier this month while making a TV documentary about the looting. Fortunately he was released a few days ago. But it's clear that one reason there is not more television coverage is that it's simply too dangerous to film.
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Montrose, CO: Yes, I think the artifacts can be saved if cultures within that region are educated on how important their history is to them for there survival, and by having outside help as consultants.
Christopher Dickey: There are plenty of Iraqis with a finely developed sense of their own vast history, and there have been several consultants trying to help them. The problem here is being driven by necessity for the common laborers, by greed among collectors, and by organized crime.
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Concord, MA: Under the present circumstances, when would you expect:
1. scholars and archeologists to be able to come to Iraq to begin studying these areas of interest
2. plans for reviving tourism to begin
Thank you,
Christopher Dickey: 1) not for another year or so. 2) not for three or four years at the earliest.
That said, there was an interesting project at the ruins of Hatra, near Mosul in northern Iraq. The opening scenes of the movie "The Exorcist" were filmed there in 1973, and some of the American troops near the site have tried to set up a tourist attraction called "The Exorcist Experience."
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Anonymous: You have many questions concerning the validity of scriptures. The physical evidence proving that scripture is true and accurate is overwhelming. The "theory" of evolution; now that's hard to swallow. It is amazing that a college drop-out and barfly like Charley Darwin could not only be believed, but that our schools still teach his proven lies and imaginative fairy tales to our children as fact.
Perhaps people should be researching the right things to start with. Evolution vs. creation. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Christopher Dickey: Questioning the validity of some of the physical evidence is not the same as questioning the validity of scripture.
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Orlando, Fl: It is mentioned in your beginning headline that Muslim extremist think that Camp Alpha is wicked because it is spread across hallow ground. What do the normal Iraq think?
Christopher Dickey: That's not quite what the article said. The Columbia University archeologist, Zainab Bahrani, has a Muslim name. That does not make her a Muslim extremist.
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Columbus, OH: Do you think some of our reluctant allies (e.g. France and Germany) could be persuaded to provide military or police personnel expressly to guard archaeological sites?
Christopher Dickey: Col. Matthew Bogdanos, whom we mentioned in the article, has made precisely this suggestion. It's a good one, and I'd like to see the French and the Germans put more pressure on their governments to follow up on it.
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New York, NY: is it possible that us agression on Iraq was triggered by collecting as many artifacts, and that the U.S. Army are in conivance?
Christopher Dickey: There has been some looting by U.S. and other Coalition soldiers, but, no, I don't think a desire to loot the artifacts was in any way a motive for the invasion.
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Lake Carey, PA: Have any artifacts or items of interest been discovered in any of the presidential palaces of Iraq? The lavishness shown on news reports would lead me to think that would be the case. And if so, what is the proceedure in dealing with any items recovered?
Christopher Dickey: The Iraqi Museum is supposed to be in charge of any such items. I don't know of specific cases, but there certainly would have been some. Saddam liked to identify himself, after all, with Nebuchadnezzar, and be claimed he was building the modern Babylon.
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Hudson, FL: Do you believe that all lot of American soldiers have stolen sacred artifacts for the re-selling of them at low prices? Are we that dumb in the U.S., to fetch such a small price for these artafacts, since we are a nation of capitalists?
Christopher Dickey: It's possible that some soldiers are selling some artifacts, but nobody I talked to believes that is the core of the problem.
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Hudson, FL: What is your opinion on the cave they discovered and saying that it might be the baptisamal cave of John the Baptist?
Christopher Dickey: Probably we'll never know with absolute, scientific certainty whether the historical John the Baptist was there. But the probability is intriguing, and for some people it is already becoming a shrine.
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Dallas, TX: Since the topgraphy of the earth was changed by the Flood, how do we know that the sites of the present Tigris and Euphrates are in the same place as the two rivers by the same names mentioned in the book of Genesis in the Old Testament?
Christopher Dickey: Interesting thought. Even without the flood, there's no question the paths of the rivers have moved. But the cities of Ur, Nineveh and Babylon have not.
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Ripon, CA: If these "priceless" artifacts are so valuable, to what purpose might they be used for anyway? To study history? Would this be by trying to date these pieces? Now it seems to me that "almost all" of the dating methods used so far have proven to bee so inaccurate that is is laughable. The reason is that those that try to date artifacts are using methods developed by narrow-minded evolutionists. If they cannot show one piece of evidence to support their theory, how can anyone continue to use any of their ideas? The saddest part is that our schools still teach our children that the world is "billions of years old" and that your great, great, great grandaddy was an ape! It is the new world of North America that needs God,s help the most.Let us study on Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Christopher Dickey: I don't think you seriously want me to comment, or would pay much attention if I did. But your note is interesting so I'm posting it here.
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Johnstown, PA: Did the humane laws of Iraq (CODE OF URNAMMU) change to The harsh laws of Hammurabi(IN WHICH NO DISTURBER WILL BE PERMITTED) after Abraham left UR with strong disgreement and conflict with his father.(Honor thy father and thy mother?) Five new harsh laws which pertain to the Relationship of Father and Son.
This change of law was of such a magnitude it resembles the Patriot Law which a stark contrast to the liberal laws of the U.S.
Did Mesopotamia have a 9-11-2001 B.C?
Christopher Dickey: Not sure I understand this one ...
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Indianapolis, IN: If you are aware of the scripture reference ... Babylon is fallen ... then you must realize that things in our world are only going to ''worsen'' rather than improve. This earth and its archeological artifacts is going to be destroyed according to Scripture. Do you know Jesus the Christ? His second coming (the Rapture) seems very close at hand.
Christopher Dickey: We'll have to take that as the final word for now.
Thank you all very much for sending in your questions and comments. I look forward to further exchanges in the not-too-distant future.